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Bad teams, high draft picks, and pitchers: a self-fulfilling prophecy? E-mail
Written by Pat Lackey   
Thursday, 14 May 2009 07:00

I've been thinking about the draft quite a bit lately. I was asked to make the Pirates' pick for MVN's mock draft over the weekend and I did a lot of wrestling with a lot of things before finally coming to UNC's right-handed pitcher Alex White as my pick. You can read my reasoning at that post, but I'm not sure there's a position player worth the slot if Ackley's off the board and in the end, I liked White the most out of the pitchers available (and not because we share a school). It's also what I think the Pirates will probably do with the pick given the same set of circumstances (no Ackley) that I was.

I'll be upfront here. Drafting a pitcher in the four-slot of the draft makes me nervous. I read Thomas Boswell's piece in the Washington Post back in April about drafting pitchers early (also discussed by Charlie on his blog) and it made me queasy. But when thinking about my MVN pick, I thought into it a bit more. It's harder to project pitching than hitting, yes. But it shouldn't be impossible. If it was, drafting pitching would be a completely random event. Take one look at the Red Sox or the Rays and you'll agree that it's not.

Teams bad enough to have the first pick in the draft are quite often pitiful organizations. They have poor scouting, they have poor player development, and they make poor decisions. For example, the Pirates have picked two of the 13 pitches chosen first overall since 1965: Kris Benson in 1996 and Brian Bullington in 2002. Benson had an awesome (some might say Strasburg-like) junior year at Clemson in '96 though he doubled his innings that season. In 2009, that might be seen as a red flag. He didn't throw after the draft in '96 and in '97 started the year out at Lynchburg, which was the Bucs' advanced-A affiliate then just like they are now. He pitched well there and was sent to Altoona, where he struggled. He was promoted to AAA Nashville in 1998 anyways and he had a decent year (respectable 1.36 WHIP, nice strikeout and walk rates and a nice K/BB ratio), but got hit pretty hard and lit up for a 4.98 ERA. He then started 1999 with the Pirates, even though he hadn't really excelled at any level since high-A. In 1999, one year after he pitched 156 innings in Nashville, he threw 196 2/3 innings with the Bucs. In 2000, he went to 217 2/3. In 2001, he had Tommy John surgery and he never really recovered the potential he flashed prior to going under the knife.

Is it fair to say the Pirates' handling of Benson is the only reason he's considered a bust as the first overall pick in the draft? Probably not, but I think we can look at the evidence and agree that their handling of him certainly might have contributed. The Pirates' other number one overall pitcher was Brian Bullington. I don't think that even Dave Littlefield thought he was the best player in the 2002 draft. But we've got proof of principle here. Of the thirteen pitchers taken with the first pick in the draft, how many others were affected by the team that picked them like Bullington and Benson?

In 1973, David Clyde became the first pitcher drafted first overall. He went straight from high school to the majors because he was from Houston and the Rangers' owner wanted to sell tickets. Guess how that turned out. Floyd Bannister had some pretty good years in the late 1970s and early-to-mid 1980s, but he pitched for some really bad teams in Seattle and Chicago. Mike Moore pitched for an awful Seattle team early in his career and still carved out a solid career. Tim Belcher is one of the few pitchers drafted early to land on a good team (the early 90s Dodgers turned things around quickly after he was picked) and he also had a solid but not great career. Andy Benes was a good pitcher on some middling Padre teams in the early 90s, arguably the ace of the St. Louis team that made the playoffs a couple times in the mid-90s, and ran out of gas at the age of 30. How does the perception of his career change if he started out with a good team? Ben McDonald was rushed through the minors and had a full big-league workload thrown on him at the age of 22. Paul Wilson was part of a young Mets' staff who saw every single promising young arm in the system get blown out (Jason Isringhausen and Bill Pulsipher were the other two big names in that group). Brien Taylor was a good prospect until he tore his labrum in a fistfight. Matt Anderson was a really stupid pick (and yes, I know current Pirate scouting director Greg Smith made that selection). Luke Hochevar's got his whole career ahead of him and looked good in AAA before his callup this year. David Price looks like a future ace.

I realize that that was a cursory glance a those picks and that this a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg argument, but I think that development and environment has as much to do with with most of these pitchers failing as bad luck or the inability to. It's no surprise that Brian Bullington developed poorly with a club that developed a lot of pitchers poorly, just like it's not a surprise that David Price is developing well in a system that's developing a lot of pitchers well. It is certainly harder to scout pitching than it is to scout hitting, but I think it's also easier for bad coaching to screw up pitching prospects than it is for bad coaching to screw up hitting prospects. There's a lot more to it than just saying, "drafting pitchers high never works."

In fact, it seems to me like it's panning out much better in the past few seasons. The jury is still out on most of these guys, but in addition to Price, Tim Lincecum, Max Scherzer, Brandon Morrow, and Justin Verlander were all recent first round picks and none were selected later than Scherzer at #11.  Brian Matusz (last year's #4 pick) got off to a good start in the minors last year. Scouting is different now than it was even ten or fifteen years ago and the handling of young pitchers has improved exponentially.

I'm not saying that I think that White or Crow (or even Strasburg, for that matter) are slam dunk picks in the four-spot this year, but if the Pirates think they have the right people in place to develop young pitching and they think that White or Crow are the best players available, then that's who they should pick. I don't think they should be scared away by this particular page of history, because I'm not sure it applies to them.


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Comments (11)add comment

spazaru said:

...
I agree. Hopefully the new front office wouldn't do the piss poor job of evaluation that Littlefield did. I have to say I'm impressed with the upgrade in role players under Huntington, etc. Where the hell did Diaz and Jaramillo come from? I don't know but they've done pretty well in place of Doumit.

Still, evaluating pitching is really difficult so any first round pitching choice is a crapshoot. It really wouldn't surprise me if Strasburg is a bust and I've SEEN him pitch live down at SDSU. You just never know.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Carnegie Chip said:

...
The Rays haven't drafted pitching *that* well. Their top two starters, Garza and Kazmir, were both guys they traded for. If you look at the mid-rotation guys that came through their system (Sonnastine, Shields), I wouldn't really put them that far above Duke, Maholm, Snell, etc.

What interests me is the idea of high school vs college. I vaguely remember Moneyball saying something about never drafting high school pitching. But these college guys have so much arm trouble because they get abused. I'd rather draft a bat and then pick up a bunch of HS prospects in later rounds.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

JerryG said:

...
So if Strasburg, Ackley and White are all gone when the Pirates turn comes, should they take Crow? (maybe he should wear a shirt that says "You know you want me, baby!")
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Alex said:

...
Being from the Tidewater/ Hampton Roads where the Tides were until last year the Mets AAA affiliate I remember "Generation K" Isringhausen actually kept suffering freak injuries. He once tried to climb to his girlfriends, fell and messed up his arm
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

whygavs said:

...
Price, Davis, Hellickson, and Niemann were all drafted by the Rays. That's really, really good.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

bucdaddy said:

...
I had Wilson, Izzy and Pulsipher on my Rotisserie team the year after they made their dazzling debuts, all cheap, all for a couple years. I thought I had the league aced. When they all bombed (and I thought I had the bullpen cornered the year before, and all three of my closers bombed), is when I quit Rotisserie, cause I realized I didn't know nothing.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Carnegie Chip said:

...
Um, those guys are all in the minor leagues. We don't know how they're going to turn out yet. Isn't it a bit silly to declare a guy a success until he does something at the ML level? No offense but you buy into minor league numbers and media hype way too much.

Niemann is up but only has been so-so as a #5 starter. Subtract Kazmir and Garza and their major league output hasn't been much better than ours.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Nate said:

re:
Um, those guys are all in the minor leagues. We don't know how they're going to turn out yet. Isn't it a bit silly to declare a guy a success until he does something at the ML level?


Price pitched in the playoffs last year and did really well. Niemann is slated to move to the 'pen, where I think he'll be lights out. The others, yeah, the jury's still out, but those two are good players.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Nate said:

As for those of you talking about trades...
The Rays traded for Scott Kazmir, sure. But he was still drafted in the first round by the Mets. Garza was also selected in the first round by the Twins.

Also, anyone that thinks Garza is better than Shields is on crack. But I digress.

This means that three out of the five pitchers in the Rays rotation were drafted and developed by the team, while two additional ones were drafted in the first round by other teams. One was drafted in the first round by the Rays, and he's slated to be replaced later this season by a pitcher that the Rays drafted first OVERALL.

I don't like the idea of drafting pitching early, but the point Pat makes still stands, which is that the Rays are a great case study to prove that it can work.
 
May 14, 2009
Votes: +0

Max said:

Clem
This is my first post, so be easy on me. But as they say on Stan and Guy, long time listener first time caller. I love the site, because I, like Pat, am an eighties baby who has trouble remembering a winning Pirates team. But the draft is one of my favorite subjects so I figure now is as good a time as ever to chime in.

I completely agree in that it's not the end of the world if the Pirates draft a pitcher at 4 overall, but the majority of Pirates fans make think it is due to the DL era. Coaching and a responsible workload are very important once an organization drafts any player, but what's most important is drafting talent. None of the pitchers selected in the first round in the past decade could be described as a potential staff ace. I think Peter Gammons said it best in that the Pirates have been drafting tenth round talent in the first round.

So I have no problem with the Buccos drafting a pitcher at four so long as the talent is worthy. Of course I would love for Ackley to fall to us but I think the Ms grab him at 2, though if that doesn't happen, the Pads could pass on him and I have little doubt NH wouldn't pull the trigger on him. But if that doesn't happen...

I don't see them drafting White as he has slid on many draft boards due to a lackluster recent showing. In a recent post on ESPNs draft blog they have the Pirates high on RHPs Shelby Miller and Jacob Turner while also preferring Crowe to Scheppers (sorry for the lack of a link, though it's insider locked). Turner supposedly has the best HS arm in the draft with a fastball that clocks as high as 98, while Miller is one of those Texas stud flamethrowers, 6'4 220, 95 mph fastball with a gnarly curve. The only problem I believe is that they are both borass advisees, though NH/FC have both said that won't be a problem.

This draft sort of reminds me of the 06 draft where we were hoping for Longoria to drop to us, it didn't happen so we picked Lincoln, a classic DL quick to the majors but lower ceiling pick (although Lincoln looks decent and seems like he could be a good 3/4 starter). At the time I wasn't all that upset with the pick, but had hoped the Pirates would sac up and pick either Kershaw or Drabek (both HS pitchers out of Texas who had ace potential) Now it looks like I was right as Kershaw looks like a future ace at 21 (though with the way the Dodgers handled him last year and how up and down he's been this year, it's not a gaurentee) and Drabek has been dominant so far this seasom after having TJS last year.

I just don't want this years draft to turn into the same deal, go with the safe college pick rather than the risky high school flame thrower. I know this years class is nothing special, and there really is no talent deserved of the fourth pick outside of Stras and Ack, but I have to disagree with Pats pick of White, way too inconsistent this year. Please Pirates, grow a pair this year.

Sorry for the length of the post but I just had a lot to say.
 
May 16, 2009
Votes: +0

PittWin said:

Draft
I agree with Max above that part of the problem with the Pirates drafting pitchers in the first round is they drafted for signability instead of talent. You don't draft a number 3 starter in the top of the first round.
I still would rather see a position player drafted but only if he was worth drafting at number 4.
I think Crow or White would be a good pick with the number four selection. I have a gut feeling that Scheppers is going to be a bust. I hope they don't draft him at number 4, which I'm sure they will not.
The overall key to the draft is drafting players in the later rounds that are top two round talents. Last year they drafted Scheppers as well as a few HS players they got to sign instead of going to school. Throwing money around in the later rounds could become very useful in stockpiling talent in the system.
 
May 20, 2009
Votes: +0

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