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How good does Andy LaRoche have to be to be good? E-mail
Written by Pat Lackey   
Thursday, 28 May 2009 11:54

I asked this question about Nyjer Morgan a while back, but I think it's actually far more relevant to ask the same question about Andy LaRoche. Everyone is thrilled with the way he's hitting right now (.297/.370/.414), but a lot of is because of just how bad he looked after his debacle last year. In reality, he was the main return on Jason Bay, and his OPS is still below .800 at the end of May. I think he'll likely get over .800 this year, but exactly what does LaRoche have to do to cement himself as both a good trade return and a good long-term third baseman for the Pirates?

Let's start by comparing LaRoche's performance this year to his projections. PECOTA (subscribers only) slotted him for a .267/.358/.412 season and then basically sees him having the same season for the next six years or so with a slight increase in power. If LaRoche finishes the season with his current line, that's a pretty incredible projection (off by 12 points of OBP and 2 slugging points) given all the disparity in his big league and minor league numbers, so in that case I'll certainly defer to PECOTA on the long-range forecast.

That would make LaRoche a pretty average third baseman. He'd certainly be better than replacement and he'd be a pretty solid starter, but he wouldn't be an All-Star by any means. For comparison, Pedro Feliz, Bill Mueller, and Joe Crede have both started at third base for recent World Series champs and LaRoche's 110 OPS+ outstrips all of them in their World Series year, so if Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata and Pedro Alvarez live up to expectations and Nate McLouth and Ryan Doumit hang around, LaRoche would probably be more than good enough at third base to make the Pirates an interesting team. People in Pittsburgh would probably still regard the trade as a flop, but they'd be wrong about that, because getting, say, four years of a solid starting third baseman plus whatever Moss, Hansen, and Morris contribute for one year of Bay thumping for a bad team before leaving for free agency isn't really a bad swap. It's not a great trade, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad one.

But what if he's better than that? Since April 16th, the day he recorded his first hit, LaRoche is hitting .333/.405/.465. Hi stats in those 38 games stretched out over 162 games would give him 47 doubles, 9 homers, and 90 RBIs to go with that line. One of the more interesting things I read about LaRoche when we traded for him was a comparison to him and Jason Kendall in his prime, before his thumb injury changed his career. For comparison, for anyone that doesn't remember a Kendall other than the slap-hitter we saw in his last few years in Pittsburgh or the giant black hole that he is with a bat now,  in 1998, Kendall hit .327/.411/.473 with 36 doubles, 12 homers, and 75 RBIs. In 1998, 1999, and 2000, Kendall slugged over .470 with an OBP over .410. To that point in his career, Mickey Cochrane was his most comparable player and had he kept going at that rate, I'm not going to say he wouldn't have been a Hall of Famer.

Getting off my Jason Kendall tangent (man, I loved Jason Kendall) and back to the point, I'm not saying that I think Andy LaRoche is a future Hall of Famer, or even that he's equivalent to Jason Kendall in his prime. We just haven't seen enough from him to make any kind of judgment like that yet. Instead, I'm just trying to establish potential levels of performance and what they all mean. As it stands, I'd break it down about like this; if LaRoche keeps going at approximately the pace he's at right now for the full season (batting average around .300, OBP a good 70 points higher than that, OPS right around .800), then he's a nice player and a nice return for Bay. He's won't be a star, but he'll be a good Major Leaguer and one the Pirates can work with. If he gets into a crippling slump, which he's obviously been prone to in the past, and that line starts to sink at all, we're going to be looking for a third baseman. And if he really did throw a switch on April 16th and keeps hitting the way he has since then? It's probably time to shake Neal Huntington's hand.

Right now, I'm really interested in LaRoche's next 40 games. We've already seen him slump this year, and we've seen him kill the ball. Can LaRoche really be a .400 OBP guy that slugs .450, or is this just a good month for him? For now, I'm just happy that I can even entertain the thought. He's come a long way from the guy we saw last August and September.


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Comments (24)add comment

gorillagogo said:

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IMO, Andy needs to hit for more power for me to consider him an acceptable return in the Bay deal. He's never going to be the 30+ HR bat Bay was, but if he's able to put up 20 HRs and still get on base at the same rate he currently is, I'd consider that good enough.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

whygavs said:

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But it's not, "Andy LaRoche OR Jason Bay over the next five years." It's LaRoche over the next five vs. Bay in 2009. LaRoche's offense might never completely replace Bay's, but it's better than the alternative, which was not trading Bay at all and ending up with nothing for him after this year.

And we're not even considering defense. LaRoche seems to be about average at a position that's tougher to field (and more important) than Bay in left field, where (by most metrics) he was anywhere between below average and awful.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

gorillagogo said:

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But it's not, "Andy LaRoche OR Jason Bay over the next five years."

Perhaps I should've been clearer, since I didn't mean to imply that. My position is that Bay was a 900 OPS guy with over a year left on his contract at a below market value salary. I agree that Andy was the main piece the Pirates got back, so in my opinion Andy needs to hit for more power for the trade to be viewed as acceptable.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

whygavs said:

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But he wasn't the only piece that we got back. You can't just trade Jason Bay and expect to get Jason Bay back; if that were the case, the deal would've never been made in the first place.

If LaRoche hits .320/.410/.450 and plays decent defense at third base, his value will be pretty similar to that of a guy that hits .300/.390/.530 and plays bad defense in left field.

Home run power isn't necessarily everything. Look at the Twins last year. Only three players hit 10+ homers and they still finished third in the AL in runs scored.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

Philip said:

LD%
Rocco on Extra Innings the other night said Laroche's LD% is 2nd highest of any player in the NL (Behind Nick Johnson i think). Excuse my ignorance, but what does that imply, if anything? Just that he gets the ball out of the infield? Makes very solid contact? Or that maybe eventually, the power will come?
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

gorillagogo said:

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But he wasn't the only piece that we got back. You can't just trade Jason Bay and expect to get Jason Bay back; if that were the case, the deal would've never been made in the first place.

Again, I didn't mean to imply that. In my original comment I acknowledged Andy would never be the 30+ HR bat that Bay was, and I later stated that I agreed with your position that Andy was the main piece of the return on Bay.

If LaRoche hits .320/.410/.450 and plays decent defense at third base, his value will be pretty similar to that of a guy that hits .300/.390/.530 and plays bad defense in left field.

Home run power isn't necessarily everything. Look at the Twins last year. Only three players hit 10+ homers and they still finished third in the AL in runs scored.


These are good points. I'm just stating my opinion that I'd want to see Andy develop into a 20 HR guy instead of a 10 HR guy before I consider the Bay deal acceptable. That assumes Andy can keep getting on base at a good rate and is able to play good defense. It also assumes we get some contributions from one or more of the other guys in the trade.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

w.k. kortas said:

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While--at this point, anyway--Andy hasn't shown the kind of power you'd like from a corner infield, if someone develops a man-crush on Sanchez and/or Alvarez doesn't outgrow third base, he could be a second baseman who hits .280, walks a decent amount, and hits a dozen or so homers. You can live--and win-- with that.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

James Hetfield said:

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An "average" thirdbaseman is a step up for the Pirates at that position. Sad but true.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

nicolas said:

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it actually implies all three. If Andy had, say, the second highest ground ball percentage, it would mean that a large amount of his average/obp/ops was tied up in balls merely finding the holes in the defense, which is more luck than skill.

That high LD% means that he is making solid contact and it is LIKELY (only likely) that his current production is a fairly accurate representation of his hitting ability long doubles should eventually turn into homeruns as the season progresses/the weather warms, etc.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

nicolas said:

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also, i think it's also a fair point, along side the mention that we have to compare "five years of laroche at this level" to merely "a year and a half of bay" in judging quality, i think it's equally necessary to compare that same production by laroche to the players that would have been the everyday thirdbaseman (men?) in his absence.

are we talking vasquez? hinske? walker? some mishmash of them and/or others? i think that also boosts andy's value a bit.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

Tommy said:

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I'm not going to believe Andy LaRoche is an average third baseman or better just from a good month. That same reasoning would have meant that the Pirates were a .500 team. Let's see how he does in late summer again before we start putting him in the Hall of Fame.
 
May 28, 2009
Votes: +0

Nate said:

re:
While--at this point, anyway--Andy hasn't shown the kind of power you'd like from a corner infield, if someone develops a man-crush on Sanchez and/or Alvarez doesn't outgrow third base, he could be a second baseman who hits .280, walks a decent amount, and hits a dozen or so homers. You can live--and win-- with that.


I've actually advocated for moving Andy to second for a while now. It's pretty clear that he has some good range and a good glove, and an average defensive third baseman usually makes for an above average defensive first baseman. He'd be a slightly better bat than Freddy with much better defense.

The problem is, who are you going to stick at third? The organisation doesn't have any legit second base prospects, but unless Neil Walker starts doing some good things in Indy, at least they'll have more players to throw at the wall and see if they stick than they do at third. I'd love to see Andy move over if we get a legit third baseman, but I don't see it happening for at least 2-3 years.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

Jess said:

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I've been lurking for a while. I'm a life long Buccos fan. I played softball in college (no homo), and I love baseball.

I'm guilty of throwing both LaRoches under the bus on a regular basis. However, Andy has exceeded my expectations so far. Who knows, it might just be a fluke. I'm ok with him not hitting a ton of homeruns as long as he can find the holes on the field consistently and get the RBIs. But then again, the game with 18 hits could have used some more powerful hits to clean the bases. I'm still in disbelief in the number of stranded runners. I agree that giving up Bay a little earlier than planned for something in return was better than keeping him for a little longer when he probably was just gonna leave and get nothing.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

azibuck said:

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OK, let me see if I've got this right. Andy Laroche just has to be OK to be good, but Nyjer Morgan has to be really, really good to be OK.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

bwzimmerman said:

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dude, you don't even want to know how good Delwyn's gotta be in order to suck...
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

whygavs said:

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They play different positions and they have different skill sets.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

Nate said:

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Also I think it's been a pretty long time since you've actually bashed Nyjer on this site. I think we can file him under "most pleasant surprise" for this season.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

whygavs said:

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I also set a baseline goal for him to match Juan Pierre's 2003 season in which he had a .734 OPS.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

azibuck said:

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To me, the two blogs are clearly slanted. I guess I'm just (being a dick, yeah, I know) saying, you tried to come off in the Nyjer article like you were being fair and open-minded, when you clearly aren't.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

Nate said:

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I think that comparing an athlete that plays almost exactly like Juan Pierre to Juan Pierre is entirely fair and open-minded.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

matt w said:

Fangraphs on Morgan, from January
Somehow I missed this Fangraphs article on NyjMo from the offseason:

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/is-nyjer-morgan-the-next-juan-pierre

It's fantasy-oriented but it seems a lot like what people are saying here -- doesn't look pretty in the field but has a great UZR, needs to hit around .300 to be useful; except that it turns out that his OBP is staying at .363 even as his average drops to .286, and he still is stealing at a 2/3 rate. (Aside: it can't be that common to have a higher OBP than SLG, can it? Even Chris Gomez couldn't do it last year.)

Apologies if someone's already linked it.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

azibuck said:

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Sigh.

I think there's room for a player like Morgan on a Major League team, provided that he can be productive. The problem, at least in my eyes, is that I think that Morgan has to be better than people realize to be productive.


Condescending, and negative-focused.

(.784-ish OPS) would make LaRoche a pretty average third baseman. He'd certainly be better than replacement and he'd be a pretty solid starter, but he wouldn't be an All-Star by any means. For comparison, Pedro Feliz, Bill Mueller, and Joe Crede have both started at third base for recent World Series champs and LaRoche's 110 OPS+ outstrips all of them in their World Series year, so if Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata and Pedro Alvarez live up to expectations and Nate McLouth and Ryan Doumit hang around, LaRoche would probably be more than good enough at third base to make the Pirates an interesting team. People in Pittsburgh would probably still regard the trade as a flop, but they'd be wrong about that, because getting, say, four years of a solid starting third baseman plus whatever Moss, Hansen, and Morris contribute for one year of Bay thumping for a bad team before leaving for free agency isn't really a bad swap. It's not a great trade, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad one.

But what if he's better than that?


Positive-focused and hopeful.

The whole rest of both posts reads the same way to me.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

azibuck said:

...
... (end of other paragraph)

But what if he's better than that?

Hopeful, positive-focused. Each post reads with a distinct and opposite tone.

As a series, this is actually an interesting study, but about as fair and balanced as, well, Fox News.
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

azibuck said:

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Something else that would be interesting is a study on why Nyjer's walk rate has, so far, improved at this level, at his age. It may not last, but other, smaller samples of other things have been worthy of study, so how about that?
 
May 29, 2009
Votes: +0

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