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w,k, kortas
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... I would echo Greg's sentiments on the Cabrera front; if you're going to give Cabrera a multi-year deal, you have to be really convinced you know something that everyone else has missed. It's not like rolling the dice on a Donald Veal--if it doesn't click for him, you haven't risked a lot. Your exposure on a Cabrera is obviously a lot greater. |
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bwzimmerman
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... i have the Jack bobblehead from 2006. looked nothing like him. still didn't stop The Curse, though. |
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Deaner
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... My Jack bobblehead is the only Pirates bobblehead that I have of a player still playing for the team (which is probably common for most Bucco fans). Jack is sitting on my shelf along with: Craig Wilson, Oliver Perez, Jason Kendall, Brian Giles, Josh Gibson, and get this... Pokey Reese! Oh yeah... I have a Jim Leyland (Tigers) bobblehead up there too. |
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Gavin
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... I completely agreed with you Greg, until you said "why not" on Ray King. He's not even worth a minor league deal, he hasn't gotten anyone out in roughly six years, is grossly overweight and 35 years old. Again, the stop-gap veteran approach is absolutely not the way to proceed in a rebuilding effort, but especially when those veterans are just really bad players. |
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gregschuler
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... It was more the thought of a pitcher like Ray King who may be worth a look in spring training. In fact, why not Ray King - if he stinks that bad, it's just meal money. Who knows how relievers will perform year to year to begin with? Ray King is a big man, I will agree to that. See what being left-handed will do for you? As for the stop-gap - who cares? What young pitcher is Turnbow or King if they perform going to delegate back to AAA? I would argue given the ages of the Yahkee trio that they should all make the team even in relief (25-26 rookies tend to have very short shelf-lives), so if that was what the Pirates wanted to do - great. However, if they want to assemble a bullpen with the best arms regardless, why not sift through the scrap heap and find a few that may perform. The key is the quick hook - if they underperform, cut them. It's extremely counter-productive to let bad relievers fester. It's actually counter-productive to let most things fester, but anyway. |
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Gavin
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... I care about the stop-gap thing - I think that it is a horrible philosophy and is counter-productive to any rebuilding effort. The main downside of playing stop-gap veterans is actually simple: in addition to creating no potential for trade value down the road with an already established track record of mediocrity, it delays the evaluation process as to whether a prospect is a potential solution or whether that position is likely to need addressed in another fashion in the future. I'd rather see the bullpen consist of guys like Beam, Hansen, Meek, Sues, Burnett and/or Sanchez along with Grabow and Capps, because they all are relatively young and have potential value, especially since they have ceilings which are not yet established. |
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MrPedriqueIfYou'reNasty
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... But he was the best athlete on the team. Or so I was told by the announcing team. Often. |
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MrPedriqueIfYou'reNasty
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... Increasing the exposure is probably the only way to get Cabrera into town though...all things being equal he'd sign with most anyone else long before he signed with the Pirates. |
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azibuck
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... Confrontation="off" it delays the evaluation process as to whether a prospect is a potential solution or whether that position is likely to need addressed in another fashion in the future. Gavin, every time you post on this, I'm more convinced you're wrong. And there are a couple things wrong with just this statement. It's a fact that guys get promoted to the bigs that are not ready in one way or many. Evaluation can happen at their proper level, which may in fact be AAA. And you'll have to explain what "addressed in another fashion..." What's the other fashion? A stop-gap vet? Not if you're calling the shots. So another not-ready prospect/suspect? As for King and Turnblow, also don't underestimate their role in rebuilding. King's a LTOGY (lefty two-out guy, career avg of 2/3 IP per appearance). If he finds his junk, he's a deadline flip. Not for anything special by himself, but maybe a younger, cheaper guy. It looks like he may need to be well-spotted to only possibly face the crappiest righties, but he still gets lefties out. And Ray King is one of my favorite players. Ray's "a big Kentucky Fried Chicken eatin' motherf****r." I like how the momship captioned his pic with "burly". Nah, dude's portly. Same with Turnblow, but he's lanky. Cheap, productive, flip, repeat. Cheap, unproductive, cut, repeat. I'm not suggesting millions or multi-year deals unless it a team option, and I'd pay more for Turnbow, but I'd take those two paths all the time with guys like this. Yes, thank you to both players. |
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gregschuler
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... One part of your scenario that is not addressed is service time. Teams get three years of cheap service from plkayers before arbitration. Rebuilding teams will typically waste those years on a downward slope, thus just as the player may or may not be acclimating to the MLB, they get expensive simply due to service time. Relievers, unless they are elite closers like Rivera, should always be cheap. Turning over a bullpen is how teams should operate. The pIrtaes suffered thrugh several rooki pitchers not ready or capable of beng MLB pitchers last season. Even if the goal is not to win, the goal should be to win. How long of leash do you give Sues et al? Do you let them flounder for several years o several days before sending them down or cutting them. What I have proposed is bringing arms to spring training and going with the best six or seven. Relief pitchers may be the most tradeable asset in season - not for a big return, but simply for the fact of bullpen volatility. San Diego picked up three decent prospects for Linebrink, for example, in 2007. Even if youget some AA potential UT player for a Ray King, that's a net - if you can trade him, that means he has pitched well in the mean time. |
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Gavin
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... Honestly, start citing me examples of any relief pitchers with a track record like Ray King's who has ever brought back anything of value in a trade? With GMs finally realizing the value of their young talent, they are hoarding prospects more tightly than ever. The Linebrink deal for Will Inman is the absolute exception to the rule, it is likely to never occur again. You aren't going to get anything of value for a 35 year old reliever who hasn't gotten anyone out in about five years - have you looked at his statistics recently? And as far as evaluation occurring at AAA, evaluation can occur anywhere, but eventually you need to figure out whether a guy can play at the major league level - history is filled with examples of "AAAA" players who just couldn't cut it in the bigs despite consistently raking in the minors. Instead of signing someone like Vazquez or Wigginton, you should be searching for minor league FAs with some ceiling (the Marlins with Jorge Cantu last season is a perfect example, I would have gone after Jesus Guzman who the Giants just acquired the same way) who might actually create additional value. Stop-gap veterans are still available for teams like the Pirates because they have such little value - they have a proven track record of mediocrity or worse. As for |
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azibuck
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... If you play the "likely to never happen again" card, you're unlikely to consider the possibilities. And why does "of value" matter? If you trade for minor leaguers, it's a crapshoot anyway. I really don't understand your point, and hyperbole isn't helping. Ray King had a 111 ERA+ in 2006, i.e, less than "five years" ago. The Linebrink deal is far from the exception, in fact, closer to the rule. Here are some players on Ray King's bbref comp list: Damaso Marte was a 26yo (unsuccessful) minor leaguer when the Pirates traded for him, and then the Pirates flipped him and his 97 ERA+ for Matt Guerrier. In 2003, 31yo Scott Sauerbeck and his utterly undistinguished career were traded in both iterations to Boston, ultimately for Fred Sanchez. Point is, Boston wanted someone to get lefties out. Remember that, Boston wanted Sauerbeck in 2003. Jason Christiansen and his 4.97 ERA and 1.39 WHIP were traded for Jack Wilson. Though in fairness, Christiansen was only 30 and had a better recent track record. But he was eventually traded twice more, once for a pitcher 7 years younger. The last time he was traded was after worse numbers than Ray King for 3.5 years in SF, to the Angels for two pitchers, one of whom was 21 and is still in the SF system. Mike Myers put up two pretty crappy years in Arizona -- ERA+ of 104 and 82, WHIPs of 1.51 and 1.62. At age 35, he signed as a FA with Seattle for 550K in 2004. He put up a 93 ERA+ and 1.66 WHIP. But the Red Sox traded for him at the deadline as the lefty du year, giving up two players. Kevin Ool, a 23yo lefty who never made, and a 20yo OF. If you don't play the lottery you can't win it. Nobody's building around Ray King, and if Ray King "blocks" someone with no hope of ever being any good, ever, like Yo Her, then we should be happy to invite King to ST. And while in isolation he wouldn't bring back much, he could be a throw-in that seals a deal in a trade of Wilson or Laroche. If he stinks he won't be around long. Start citing me the possible harm. |
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